Free Guillemot S&G - offsets vs free PDF plans, and a qtn.

Submitted byMyrl Tanton onSun, 10/27/2019 - 20:09
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Kayak Building

HI guys, 

I've cut out the panels for Nick's free S&G.   years ago I build a Hybrid S&G hull and strip deck.   So I'm going to build two more,  a slightly larger one for me (deck height only) for better foot room. and leg room, and one for my daughter.   I've got the panels cut, and they look pretty good to my eye.  

At this point  have one comment and one question.

Comment:  I made use of Nick's PDF and had it printed then aligned everything, taped around the edges, and then cut out the paper template.  I then taped this down every ft or so, and traced them down to the wood.   The lines from the print out are fairer than the lines from plotting the offsets provided.  So far I recommend going with printing the file rather than plotting the offsets directly to the wood.

As for my question,  the printed plans come with a normal  Fwd/aft  plot of kayak, where each 'station' is plotted over top of each other and you see the kayak from the front/back.   I intend to use these as the stations for holding my kayak to shape while stitching it up.  The qtn is, are these to the inside of the kayak, or the outside?   I believe they are for the inside, but would appreciate confirmation. 

Rob, did you get the VJ re-built  finished?

Thanks

Myrl.

 

JohnAbercrombie

Mon, 10/28/2019 - 13:35

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Myrl said:

I intend to use these as the stations for holding my kayak to shape while stitching it up.  The qtn is, are these to the inside of the kayak, or the outside?   I believe they are for the inside, but would appreciate confirmation. 

You shouldn't need very many 'forms ti get the boat shape correct - I think Pygmy only uses 2 or 3?

If it were my build, I'd probably wire up the hull panels and then position the forms where they fit the panels.

For a S&G boat, usually if you measure the station form and compare it to the width of the panel you will have the answer.

With 3mm (?) plywood it won't be a big discrepancy, and it doesn't make a great deal of difference if the boat ends up a bit wider or narrower than the design - just IMO.

mick allen

Mon, 10/28/2019 - 13:42

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The qtn is, are these [stations] to the inside of the kayak

Just measure any of the dotted dimensions on the panel layouts - and if it is an identical dimension to that of the relevant station dimension then that station dimension and likely all the others are to the inside of the kayak.

If the dotted panel dimension is less than the relevant section dimension then the sections would be to the outside [not likely as you surmise] of the kayak. 

Use one of the side dimensions as the difference will be more noticable.

Myrl Tanton

Mon, 10/28/2019 - 14:32

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Measuring the dotted line vs the  lines from the  plan is exactly what I did,  and it seems to be the inside.    I asked only after seeing Nick's S&G video.

John, you are right with the 3mm ply, it is not going to make much of a difference,  and if I used a bevel at the joint would make it even less of a difference.   

FWIW, I liked the way nick did the fillets and the inside Glass at the same time using external frames. However since I'm  building a Hybrid, I'll probably go with the internal stations so I can make them dual use for spacers and the stations for stapling the strips for the deck  (which will end up with more than 3 or 4 anyways).    

Thanks again,

Myrl.

 

 

 

mick allen

Mon, 10/28/2019 - 15:50

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It's an interesting question because without confirmation from the designer [ obviously Nick in this case], an outsider [like me or you] can never know for sure . . . because if the stations are to the inside [lets say internal forms now], and are used for construction AND if the panels are exactly cut out as per the plans, THEN none of the panels will fit properly together IF there is ANY internal bevelling or rounding of the internal corners in order to enable building [ie increase bearing area or friction betw panels] as some [often CLC] recommends or some jointing fanatic builder may use in order to more easily/beautifully build a S&G boat.  So no mitred corners.

So something might give a little - which an outsider just can't know for sure.  Another way around is to recommend tiny spacers or pins betw panels that have been rounded/shaped. 

Looking at it from the drawing end, it is way way way easier [using the several digital tools that I know and use] to make the drawings from the inside because if from the exterior, then the material thickness would have to be modelled in order to get the exact and ever changing orthogonal [with respect to a centreline, say] thickness perfectly laid out for one's plans - a whole, time consuming, extra, unnecessary [unless perfect exterior dimensions important] step.

So, if I was to do it for others for my own stuff, I might make each form/station an angstrom or two smaller than perfectly correct in order to account for a slight rounding of the interior corners of each panel - but I never have from myself because my personal prejudice is that wide and noticeable jointing can emphasize and augment the aesthetic shaping of S&G shapes.

Anyway, so I think I know the answer, but . . . . but . . .

"Anyway, so I think I know the answer, but . . . . but . . .".  Ha, if that does not sum up a project like this, then nothing does. 

I'm not looking for perfection here, as one poster on this forum said about 15 years ago,  'the search for perfection is the work of the devil'.  Of all comments on this form, that is one that really stuck with me. 

Anyways.. time will tell. I'm not overly worried.    I've  simply put 1/4 radius on the inside corner of the panels (before reading your post).  we'll see how things fit once I stitch it up.   I meant to let the one end of the side panels run  a bit longer,  and then just cut the end to fit.  but I forgot to do that once I was sawing it.   If the sides panel's bottom edge ends up being longer than the outside edge of the bottom then easy to fix.  If it is the other way around... well I'll cross that bridge if I have to.   I guess the big benefit of doing a hybrid is you only need to get the hull panels to fit exactly (or at least good enough).  So you can fiddle the once, and not induce an cumulative error for the next layer of panels that otherwise would have made up the deck (assuming a two panel hull like the guillemot)

I want to do the fibreglass out side, but it is getting cold now. so I may stack the panels in the garage until spring.

Cheers,

Myrl.

 

 

 

"Anyway, so I think I know the answer, but . . . . but . . .".  Ha, if that does not sum up a project like this, then nothing does. 

I'm not looking for perfection here, as one poster on this forum said about 15 years ago,  'the search for perfection is the work of the devil'.  Of all comments on this form, that is one that really stuck with me. 

Anyways.. time will tell. I'm not overly worried.    I've  simply put 1/4 radius on the inside corner of the panels (before reading your post).  we'll see how things fit once I stitch it up.   I meant to let the one end of the side panels run  a bit longer,  and then just cut the end to fit.  but I forgot to do that once I was sawing it.   If the sides panel's bottom edge ends up being longer than the outside edge of the bottom then easy to fix.  If it is the other way around... well I'll cross that bridge if I have to.   I guess the big benefit of doing a hybrid is you only need to get the hull panels to fit exactly (or at least good enough).  So you can fiddle the once, and not induce an cumulative error for the next layer of panels that otherwise would have made up the deck (assuming a two panel hull like the guillemot)

I want to do the fibreglass out side, but it is getting cold now. so I may stack the panels in the garage until spring.

Cheers,

Myrl.

 

 

 

"Anyway, so I think I know the answer, but . . . . but . . .".  Ha, if that does not sum up a project like this, then nothing does. 

I'm not looking for perfection here, as one poster on this forum said about 15 years ago,  'the search for perfection is the work of the devil'.  Of all comments on this form, that is one that really stuck with me. 

Anyways.. time will tell. I'm not overly worried.    I've  simply put 1/4 radius on the inside corner of the panels (before reading your post).  we'll see how things fit once I stitch it up.   I meant to let the one end of the side panels run  a bit longer,  and then just cut the end to fit.  but I forgot to do that once I was sawing it.   If the sides panel's bottom edge ends up being longer than the outside edge of the bottom then easy to fix.  If it is the other way around... well I'll cross that bridge if I have to.   I guess the big benefit of doing a hybrid is you only need to get the hull panels to fit exactly (or at least good enough).  So you can fiddle the once, and not induce an cumulative error for the next layer of panels that otherwise would have made up the deck (assuming a two panel hull like the guillemot)

I want to do the fibreglass out side, but it is getting cold now. so I may stack the panels in the garage until spring.

Cheers,

Myrl.

 

 

 

Myrl Tanton

Mon, 10/28/2019 - 23:50

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argh...  the website  or my browser was throwing an error... I assumed the post did not make it, being a suborn sort I tried three times... 

Hey, Myrl, I got the repairs completed on the VJ. The camera holder is now removable, all damaged areas have been patched, the seat was removed...repaired...and reinstalled, and the hatches are now converted from webbing straps to rare earth magnet hold downs. I ran out of time to get the finish coat of epoxy and final deck art work added so I'll finish it up next spring...unheated garage = delayed project completion dates. That said, I still have my Night Heron to use for paddling. Isn't it kind of a tradition for us to go paddling in the mountains during November? ?

Robert N Pruden

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