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Now THIS I agree with!!!
By:Doug Keaster
Date: 4/20/2000, 4:48 pm
In Response To: The right to make unsupported statements..... (Bruce)

############################
: If we were to turn this into a discussion on how to improve kayaking safety,
: which is a worthy subject, I wonder how many experienced paddlers would
: put composite layup strength on the top of the list? I certainly would
: not. ########################### I mean it's actually relative to kayaking (and dare I say canoeing.) I have commented on George's post before, most often "against" his position,in this forum and on others, BUT I do agree with many of the things he advocates. His building methods are just as valid as ours and in many instances he and I build alike. If we are to assume that George builds his boats the way he does in order to provide a "stronger" boat and his position is that the standard industry wide method is a dangerous path to follow then we need to know data. George places a huge amount of importance on composite layup data yet fails to define the importance of such raw data. Yes it is understood that multiple layers of fancy schmancy cloth are going to produce a light strong boat but at what cost? The backyard builder can, and they do, build boats with single layers of glass that are "strong". The question is "how strong does my boat need to be in order to reasonably survive the punsihment I may give it as well as anybody down the road who might use it?" I feel, but do not "know" because the info just doesn't seem to be available, that my canoes built basically like those in countless books, are capable of withstanding significant abuse. I paddle my canoes. I know what abuse they have recieved and I know what damage has occured to them. This is undeniable data. Admittedly I do not know what pressure levels the hull has seen when it is loaded with 700# and goes aground but I DON'T need to. I know what type of damage sand, rocks, mud, boulders, stumps, and the effects of sun have on my canoes. This is important data to me. Engineers are famous for saying "hmmmmm that should of worked" where as explorers say "I know what I need to get the job done." I feel confident enough in my canoes that I warranty the hull for life. I know that I will eventually repair a hull but so far (5 years) I have yet to have a hull come back and I have canoes all over the Country. This is REAL WORLD DATA. Doug The Bear Paw Canoe Co.

Messages In This Thread

Safety, two points
Nolan -- 4/20/2000, 9:32 am
Re: Safety, two points
Rehd -- 4/22/2000, 3:59 am
Re: Safety, two points
Erez -- 4/22/2000, 10:16 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 11:49 am
Re: What information do you want?
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 12:33 pm
Re: P.S.
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 12:36 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 2:10 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
Don Beale -- 4/21/2000, 9:09 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 2:46 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 4:19 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
Ross Leidy -- 4/21/2000, 4:43 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
simon king -- 4/21/2000, 5:07 pm
I do agree
Marcelo -- 4/21/2000, 5:58 pm
Re: I do agree
Ian Johnston -- 4/22/2000, 2:18 am
Re: I do agree
Dean Trexel -- 4/23/2000, 1:29 pm
Off topic: Banana Republic Citizen
Marcelo -- 4/22/2000, 3:16 pm
Re: Off topic: Banana Republic Citizen
Ian Johnston -- 4/22/2000, 7:02 pm
Re: Diesels for marine use ...
John B. -- 4/22/2000, 6:47 pm
Re: Avoidance/responsibility
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 3:37 pm
Re: P.S.
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 1:22 pm
Re: martial soap operas
lee -- 4/21/2000, 7:54 pm
Re: Well Put
Mike Hanks -- 4/21/2000, 2:05 pm
Re: Well Put
Dean Trexel -- 4/21/2000, 2:23 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Dean Trexel -- 4/21/2000, 12:22 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Bill Heuser -- 4/22/2000, 6:07 am
Time to step back and take a deep breath
Brian Nystrom -- 4/22/2000, 9:36 am
Re: Your Flame Sucks
Spidey -- 4/23/2000, 1:27 am
A little testy, are we?
Brian Nystrom -- 4/23/2000, 7:18 am
Re: Time to step back and take a deep breath
Bill Heuser -- 4/22/2000, 5:17 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Richard -- 4/22/2000, 7:54 am
Re: What information do you want?
Don Beale -- 4/21/2000, 12:19 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 12:33 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Don Beale -- 4/21/2000, 8:58 pm
Re: There are no standards
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/22/2000, 9:53 am
Re: Propriatary data
Don Beale -- 4/23/2000, 11:55 pm
Re: safety,reality,and b.s.
lee -- 4/21/2000, 12:54 am
Well put Lee (nt) *NM*
Doug Keaster -- 4/21/2000, 9:05 am
Re: safety,reality,and b.s.
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 8:03 am
Re: Good morning
lee -- 4/21/2000, 9:24 am
Re: safety,reality,and b.s.
Brian G. -- 4/21/2000, 9:10 am
Re: safety,reality,and b.s.
Brian G. -- 4/21/2000, 1:55 am
The right to make unsupported statements.....
Bruce -- 4/20/2000, 4:03 pm
Re: oops!
Dean Trexel -- 4/20/2000, 9:47 pm
Re: oops!
Bruce -- 4/20/2000, 10:12 pm
Re: oops!
Brian Nystrom -- 4/20/2000, 10:58 pm
Re: oops!
Brian G. -- 4/21/2000, 12:37 am
Re: The right to make unsupported statements.....
Dean Trexel -- 4/20/2000, 5:31 pm
Safety priorities....
Will Brockman -- 4/20/2000, 8:49 pm
Now THIS I agree with!!!
Doug Keaster -- 4/20/2000, 4:48 pm
Well written points by Nolan.
Allen R. -- 4/20/2000, 2:19 pm
Re: Well written points by Nolan.
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 7:44 am
Re: Safety, two points
Dean Trexel -- 4/20/2000, 12:24 pm
Re: Safety, two points
Chicken Little -- 4/21/2000, 10:39 am
Re: Safety, two points
Ken Finger -- 4/20/2000, 11:38 am
Re: Safety, two points
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 7:50 am
Re: Safety, two points
Derek -- 4/20/2000, 11:37 am
An outsider's perspective
Brian Nystrom -- 4/20/2000, 1:30 pm
Re: An outsider's perspective
Dean Trexel -- 4/20/2000, 2:05 pm
Not true, from what I've seen
Brian Nystrom -- 4/20/2000, 2:48 pm
Re: Not true, from what I've seen
Dean Trexel -- 4/20/2000, 5:13 pm
Re: Not true, from what I've seen
Brian Nystrom -- 4/20/2000, 10:41 pm
Re: Bryan
lee -- 4/21/2000, 1:39 am
Here you go.
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 8:02 am
Re: Strength Data Graphs *Pic*
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 12:28 pm
Re: Strength Data Graphs
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 12:51 pm
Re: Strength Data Graphs
Shawn B -- 4/21/2000, 4:04 pm
Re: wood density
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 4:25 pm
Re: wood density
Bill Heuser -- 4/22/2000, 4:38 pm
Re: Optimized Boats
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 3:01 pm
Agreed
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 5:08 pm
Re: Agreed
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 5:45 pm
Re: Well Said, Nick!! *NM*
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 3:42 pm
Re: Here you go.
lee -- 4/21/2000, 8:59 am
Fair enough, but...
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 10:19 am
Re: p.s. guys in a snit
lee -- 4/21/2000, 9:17 am
Off topic, but since you went there...
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 10:56 am
Re: Off topic, but since you went there...
lee -- 4/21/2000, 7:36 pm
Re: Lee
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 3:16 am
Re: Lee
lee -- 4/21/2000, 9:07 am
Re: Hondas and Suburban/Guillemot and Roberts
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 12:54 pm
Re: Lee
Bill Heuser -- 4/21/2000, 6:03 am
Re: Lee
James Neely -- 4/21/2000, 7:32 am
Madness continues
Dale Frolander -- 4/21/2000, 3:10 am
A nibble of crow.
Dale Frolander -- 4/22/2000, 3:38 am
Good points, Dale.
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 10:34 am
Re: Good points, Dale.
Dale Frolander -- 4/21/2000, 11:57 am
Raka
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 12:16 pm
Re: Raka
Ross Leidy -- 4/21/2000, 2:18 pm
Raka glass with MAS epoxy
Allen R. -- 4/24/2000, 3:32 pm
Re: Raka glass with MAS epoxy
Dan Lindberg -- 4/24/2000, 5:50 pm
Re: Experience with this layup *Pic*
Mike Hanks -- 4/21/2000, 1:04 pm
Practice makes perfect
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 5:02 pm
Re: Raka
Dale Frolander -- 4/21/2000, 12:37 pm
Re: It runs when you leave the room
Shawn B -- 4/21/2000, 3:52 pm
Re: Raka
Dean Trexel -- 4/21/2000, 12:29 pm
Re: Madness continues
lee -- 4/21/2000, 9:29 am
Re: Safety, two points
Ross Leidy -- 4/20/2000, 10:11 am
Re: Safety, two points
Rob Forsell -- 4/20/2000, 9:57 am