To begin with, Tom, I want to appologize for what has gone on here. You asked a simple question and deserved a simple answer, and I believe you got one originally, but, for some reason, your post has turned into a personal attack on me for My OPINION. I hope that someone else will offer you some interesting ideas, and help. As for me, I have given my ideas as best I could in my original post, and in so doing, agreed whole heartedly with Mr. Allen. My only addition was in case you were interested in building something which did not call for an internal strongback. You didn't mention which you were considering, nor if you were considering only ONE or SEVERAL boats. Again, I would like to offer you my oppologizies. Rehd

Now, it's time to Slice and Dice.

: O.K. let's go thru a few:

Yes, lets !!!

Time to construct: external takes more time to
: make. more pces. often twice as many forms

Yes, I agree, AGAIN, that if you build a boat that calls for an internal strongback, building a bench will take a little time and money. I've never disagreed with this point. But, my arguement is and always has been, If you are building a boat that calls for external forms and strongback, YOUR arguement is sensless. The original post said nothing about what kind of boat was being contemplated. I fully agreed with you in my original post, in that: if you are building a boat that calls for an internal strongback, by all means, it is probably the best and should be used. DID I NOT??? However, if you are building with an external strongback ( which I wish to call a strong/bench as that is what it is ) then you HAVE to have a bench to build upon. So, if you/he is undecided, and doesn't already have a work bench, why not build the bench AS a strongbench, and therefore, no matter which boat design he chooses, he will be equiped for it. " MY OPINION "

: Cost to construct: external costs more big time

External costs NOTHING MORE if that is what you need to build with. YOUR arguement there is senseless.

: Error potential: external alignment is indirect, depends on no moving and to
: some degree on floor level characteristics. internal is direct and
: alignment is irrelevant to the floor or floor levels or slopes or bumps
: and can be irrelevant to the strongback itself.

Here, your arguement makes no sense either. A strongbench, as with a strongback, internal or external HAS TO BE STRAIGHT AND SQUARE. Your arguement has NO merit here because if the bench is square and solid, moving it around will/should not twist or bend. If you are using a strongback in uprights on a bench, or stands, what is the difference? If your strongback is cradled in a stand and the stands move there is just as much of a chance for them to twist as if they were being cradled in supports on a strongbench. You HAVE to attach them to the cradle of either type and if that cradle is subject to moving around, then there is a chance of twisting, either way. Your arguement is invalid.

: Floor space: external is space grabber for the whole and future building but
: it does give you another work bench - 14ft long x 2-3ft high(I had wide
: before) x 1- 1.5ft wide. Internal takes up no extra floor space and can be
: easily hung way over in the corner rafters for the next time.

If you have ever looked at Ted Moore's strongbench, it is 10" wide and whatever length you wish. Unless you are making a 9" wide boat, there is NO WAY that the strongbench will be in the way, as your boat will be much wider and totally conceal it while building. The legs of your stands will stick out just as much as the bench and therefore YOUR arguement is pointless there as well. If your internal beam takes up NO FLOOR SPACE, exactly what are you holding it up with?? If after you finish your boat and wish to use it as a workbench, then it is a neccessity, and not a bother or waste of space. If you do not wish to use it again, and again, the original post made no mention of whether one or more boats were being contemplated, then you simply dissasemble it and that is that. Nothing else to be hanging around in your garage cluttering up the floor, OR the rafters. However, like most of us now and in the past, a second boat may be in the thought processes, and since it was not specified in the post, maybe the poster wishes to build a Walrus, for example, then YOUR internal strongback is totally useless and will stay in the rafters until it either falls apart, warps and is made useless, or falls down and.......??? But, the bench is there and only a few forms must be made for that second boat. If you perhas deside to build another boat using an internal strongback, then Whhaalaa, you have the strongbench, straight, square and ready to support your nest project. YOUR ARGUEMENT is again null and void.

: Flexibility: External is locked in one position in the shop - some would prob
: be stiff enough to move. Internal can go anywhere. Early on mine wheeled
: around.

Why is External locked in one place in the shop??? If it's on the floor, unless you choose to bolt or nail it down, it can be moved, but, as with the stands you have mentioned, it will be moveable, and again, if it is moved to a position that does not match the level of the previous spot, either one is subject to movement and twisting of the strongback. Unless you have not fastened it to the forms, and again, in either case, situation being the same, the situation/result would be the same. Somehow, YOU have attached the bench to the floor, and allowed your stands to be moveable. In that case, I would take the bench, as there would be NO room for discrepinsy, and the stands would be suspect. YOUR arguement is again invalid.

: Orientation: External is locked in a horizontal level position w/ the hull
: upright or the deck upright. Internal is free to rotate in any position.
: You can work on the sides as easily as the deck or hull. Extremely handy.

Yes, if External is used, it will be straight and square, attached to the strongbench, and with one side up or down.??? What's your point?? If you are building a boat that calls for an External form or strongback/strongbench, that is the way it has to be. And therefore, YOUR internal strongback is TOTALLY useless sitting around on the floor or in the rafters collecting dust. You're comparing apples to oranges here and I already had enough fruit for the day. Try some vegetables for a while. Oh, and I don't do red meat. Again, and I'm getting really tired of saying(typing) this, I agree with you about the use of an internal strongback, and I believe I even said so in my original post, in response to the original post, as I'm ready to start a Great Auk on my STRONGBACK, on my STRONGBENCH as soon as the Walrus is done with the strongbench. I have both, and can build either boat at will. Can you say that about your strongback?? I believe point is mine again. Much more Extremely convenient.

: Levitibility: External loses alignment and is very unwieldy to levitate(I
: presume you mean to lift) or hang from the rafters. Internal is light and
: does not lose alignment (My kayak has been hanging from the rafters for
: the last 6 mos - a few webbing straps - can sweep the floor, do minor work
: and swing it out of the way.)

As Scotty mentioned, the Levitivity remark was intended to add a little levitivity to the situation going bad in a hurry. By the way, if you are using NO SPACE with your strongback, the only way you could be doing that would be to levitate it above the floor. And I meant it as a magician in his levitation act. No strings attached. :) It was a funny. ( obviously gone bad.) But, I have to admit, you have me there, as I could not move my bench up in the air, but, when I'm building, I would be able to clean around it at will, and therefore, that is not really a valid point. However, I could not get my car in the garage with it in the way. It hasn't been in the garage since 1975 anyway, so, ????????? When I start to build something, I don't " put it away " for six months, so, I can't comment on the validity of that.

: Aesthetic Concerns and Process

As far as I'm concerned, aesthetics are concerned, I don't build something that I don't know what it will turn out like. I don't need to " SEE " it in progress, or rather " IMAGINE I'm SEEING IT " and after all, aesthetics is only that isn't it?? Imagination! At least in the context in which we are using it here. If you are looking at forms and any work that is incomplete and seeing the completed product, you are imagining it. As I said, that's not my bag. I find something I like and just build it, and it amazingly comes out just like what I SAW.

: The ability to see the whole yak in progress allows visualization for shifts
: and moves in the designing bldg process not possible w/ the external. For
: me, I have designs or strips going thru the sheer and may or may not move
: the sheer to accomodate. I get to choose, the sheer is NOT set and yet
: will perfectly match b/c the whole thing gets blt at one location.

Since at this time and at the time of the original posting, I/we do not know what type boat the original poster was contemplating building, so, therefore, your arguement is not valid again. If He choses to build a Walrus, then the point you are making here doesn't make a difference. We still have to establish what he has decided to build, and your idea only includes one type of boat, using an internal strongback, whereas my idea will work for both types with the mere change of a few forms mounted to the top of a bench.

: Form Placement: Some externals(ladder type?) are less flexible in allowing
: form placement. (I forget now, but have forms at odd intervals of 3in,
: 5in, 6in, 12in and 14in - easy to slide on and fix)

Neither I nor the oribinal poster mentioned ladder type external strongback. ?? I mentioned Ted Moore's many times and obviously, you aren't seeing it, or haven't seen it. It is build exactly like a strongback, but,has the legs and body of a workbench. Just as straight and strong as what you are suggesting, and much more usefull. But, in defense of the ladder type strongback, you can place forms anywhere you like as far as I can see. You just need to put a rung where you can attach the uprights to it. ???

: If you only build using the approach on whatever plan you have, a discussion
: about relative merits is not relative. It is irrelevant. When you see
: strongback - you build strongback, when you see external - you build
: external. You will build only what you see and not what you think.

No arguement there, except for those talented enough to design something diferent than the plans called for, but, that was not an established fact included in the original post. ???

: But if you have a baseline (which therefore gives you the ability to choose),
: there are comparisons that can be assessed and therefore choices that can
: be made.

Ratz, again, you got me there. Sound like gibberish to me. But, you may have a point. ???

: -mick

I don't know why Mick, but, you have been disagreeing with me for 4 or 5 posts on things that have no bearing on the original post, and on MY original answer to that post. If you will go back and read the original post, then your post, and then my original post, you will see that I agreed with you totally, with the exception of " adding " the strongbench idea as an extra feature to make both ways of building easier and more convenient for which ever way this gengleman wish to go. And since we were both agreeing as to the best form of building, IF he was building a boat using the interanl strongback, I must conclude that you wish to make this a "personal" situation. I do not understand your direction or possible conclusion, nor do I wish to know. You are but one of several that have attacked my ideas on and off the KBBS and as to this one, I totally don't understand it. I am here to have a good time as I assumed everyone else is, and even though I haven't finished a boat yet, I have tried to stick with posts than included things which I may have been familiar with or have personal knowledge of and not stepped on any of the "experts" toes. I like wood working and can and will share what I can with others, but, when an opion is asked for, and given, it is just that. Not a challenge to a debate. I did not attack your line of thinking, but, merely added something that I thought was useful. If that doesn't make your approval, so be it. Move On...................

The floor is yours, and you may use it for whatever purposes you wish, but, don't include me in that purpose. I'm sorry for the attack, but, that is just the way I have taken your continued posts, badgering everything I have said. If there is something you don't like about Me personally, deal with it, but, not in the middle of someone elses quest for information. Very Rude!

ENOUGH SAID??? GOOD NIGHT !!!

Rehd