Shawn:

Thanks for the fair posting looking at your interpretation of the two designs. It is too bad that folks get a bit touchy about their designs and then backbite.

I think that you are right in that the amount of designers helps to get more people interested in wooden boat building. JOe afterall helps to organize the west coast R2Ketc of course and has boats of all builds there. Rob takes part in many easy coast events and also is a good participant with help direct to this BBS.

Just like Nick allows discussion on his boats as well as others here.

Rob is unfortunately only giving himself an aggressive reputation by posting negatively here, unless of course he has been duely insulted which is not the case.

NOw, lets stop the picking on designs and get back to building boats and critiqueing designs for likes/dislikes, etc.

Pete Czerpak
albany, NY

: I don't see the imitation. You deserve kudos for your implementation of your
: own designs, Joe does for his. He's not marketing Laughing Loon II,
: though, by any stretch of the imagination. Well, maybe by one.

: No doubt every aspiring kayak designer thinks, "I could do that
: better," after paddling an existing design, and may use the design
: traits of that boat for inspiration. That inspiration, however, isn't
: always positive. Many times, it's the "I could do that better,"
: aspect that drives new designs, and the first boats negative traits are
: designed out. After that radical design shift occurs, the second boat
: isn't really based on the first one. If his boats actually looked
: or performed like yours, you might have a legitimate gripe. But you don't.
: There are sufficient differences between the boats that his designs aren't
: based on yours, even if they once were--just in the back of his mind. I
: don't see Perception coming after Nick for using his old Dancer for
: inspiration. The Guillemot and the Dancer have very little in common,
: except that they're both easy to roll.

: Hmmm...they don't paddle at all like your GB. Have you ever paddled any of
: the Redfish designs? Admittedly, they're not my "cup of tea", as
: they have too much tracking for my liking, but the hullform is unique. I'm
: not knocking Joe's design...it's just not the hull shape for me, but they
: perform exactly as he's designed them to. I consider myself a very neutral
: party--I'm not on any "Redfish bandwagon" even though a lot of
: folks find Joe's designs to his liking--so take my comments with that
: statement in mind. I do have the highest respect for Joe's craftsmanship,
: and for him as a person--he neither deserves or merits a shot like you
: took.

: Resembling your boats???? Why, because they have a cockpit? I would posit
: that Joe's designs more highly resemble a Necky Arluk or CD Solstice
: series than they do your GB. Shoot, even your Panache's hull resembles the
: Redfish boats more than your GB. Are you going to accuse him of
: misappropriating that hullform next?

: So, in your ideal world, a person who buys one set of plans from a designer
: is fated to never himself be allowed to design kayaks?

: At some base level, all kayaks are "based on" Inuit or Aleut
: designs. Technically speaking, no two kayaks are alike, even those pulled
: perfectly from composite molds. There are similarities in many kayaks, but
: a new kayak design need not be strictly "based on" anything to
: come to fruition.

: Dale Frolander designed his own kayak after building a modified Guillemot
: Double after Nick's design. The similarities end there. To say that Dale's
: design is based upon anything but his own design desires and paradigms is
: wrong.

: I'm sure you've sold a few less plans than you would have since Joe has made
: his available. Some aspiring builder thinks, "I like Joe's boats'
: lines better than Rob's. I'll buy my plans from Joe". That's a
: free-market economy. No doubt Nick's, Eric's, and Jay's market shares have
: dropped as a result of a new designer in the market. Percentage-wise.
: Number-wise, additional designers have served to promote wooden
: kayak-building, and this pastime is increasingly popular; you probably
: sold more plans last year than you did in 1995--you just don't own half of
: the market anymore.

: It's not like "Joe's boats look just like Rob's, but his plans are
: cheaper so I'll buy them." Idon'tthinkso. You guys all work with very
: low overhead, and that you offer plans at all is commendable. Please don't
: start something CLC-vs-Pygmy-esque, though.

: Why, because they're wood?

: Your boats have very full ends. Redfish kayaks have pronounced vee to the
: hull shape, and extremely fine ends. Your GB is 23" at the waterline,
: and his boats are narrower than that at the sheer. The GB appears highly
: Swedeform--the first 3 Redfish boats (which you posit look like yours) are
: more nearly symmetrical. Redfish boats have much less stern rocker than
: your GB, and hardly any rocker overall. Your GB appears to have quite a
: generous amount of rocker.

: His hatch closure system is likely based on Ross Leidy's. Who did you base
: your strap closure system on? Coamings may be similar, but Joe has
: implemented recessed coamings, where you have not. Is his sculpted seat
: design based on your design?

: I can see being miffed at losing a percentage of my market share, but that's
: business. He's not remarketing your boats.

: The attached image is from images from Laughing Loon's and Redfish's
: websites, respectively. If either of you gentlemen would like for me to
: remove it, email me. I think it's a good way to illustrate differences
: (and similarities).

: Sincerely,

: Shawn W. Baker