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Re: Pete is Right On The Money about CPES
By:Pete Rudie
Date: 1/25/2002, 10:55 am
In Response To: Re: Pete is Right On The Money about CPES (Shawn Baker)

: Dave Carnell had a note in WoodenBoat about 2 years ago about some boric
: acid/ethylene glycol solutions that work great for stopping cancer in
: wooden boats.

Yes, that has been used widely. Not only in boats but in log houses, where borates are also widely used. Here is the problem. The fungus requires moisture to live. Testing has shown that the fungus goes dormant at moisture levels below about 20%. Both ethylene glycol and borate are water soluble, so they leach out of the wood under precisely the right conditions for growth of the fungus. Ergo, they are both temporary. How temporary? Measured in years perhaps, but still there is something akin to Gresham's Law at work here, where the bad wood drives out the good. A traditional unsealed wooden boat can be hauled out and treated periodically. I suppose that is true of kayaks too, but it is inconvenient to remove the glass and epoxy to get at the wood.

: Does CPES actually kill the bacteria and fungi (all those VOC's), or just
: halt their growth by retarding water and oxygen penetration?

A little of the former and a lot of the latter. The organic solvents kill the buggers during the application, but evaporation takes place within hours. Over time, what stops the rot is the encapsulation of the wood fibers, preventing the moisture content from approaching that magic 20% number. Those bacteria and fungi spores are always there, CPES doesn't prevent their presence, but the conditions for their growth are prevented. If the wood is saturated to rejection 3 times as instructed, the wood will never get moist enough to rot.

The Rot Doctor lives in Seattle, and I have been to see him several times. He has a chunk of old wood that is riddled with rot and insect bore holes. The chunk has been treated with CPES as directed, and then sawed apart, and there are several insects visible encapsulated by epoxy. Trust me on this, they are quite dead.

: I'll dig out that article and email it to you if you're interested.

Thanks, I'm always interested in the science of materials, but I think this is a dead end for kayaks.

: My thoughts exactly!

: Bill Price's Spring Run Project X has me inspired....the King might be a
: really fun hull form to try that out on.

Quite right. Joe is on to something big here.

Messages In This Thread

Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Shawn Baker -- 1/23/2002, 4:44 pm
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Severne -- 1/24/2002, 6:01 pm
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Shawn Baker -- 1/24/2002, 7:36 pm
I Wonder....
Ted Henry -- 1/24/2002, 8:12 pm
Re: I Wonder....
Pete Rudie -- 1/24/2002, 8:50 pm
Re: I Wonder....
Severne -- 1/25/2002, 5:22 pm
Hey Mr. Engineer guy,
Pete Rudie -- 1/25/2002, 7:42 pm
Re: Hey Mr. Engineer guy,
Severne -- 1/28/2002, 11:19 am
Hey, I can break 'em with the best...
Pete Rudie -- 1/29/2002, 12:17 pm
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Pete Rudie -- 1/24/2002, 7:59 pm
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Shawn Baker -- 1/25/2002, 10:16 am
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Joe -- 1/25/2002, 6:38 pm
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 1/26/2002, 11:36 am
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Pete Rudie -- 1/25/2002, 7:35 pm
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 1/25/2002, 9:58 am
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Pete Rudie -- 1/25/2002, 11:04 am
Oops, I goofed...
Pete Rudie -- 1/24/2002, 8:12 pm
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Don Beale -- 1/24/2002, 7:10 pm
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Pete Rudie -- 1/25/2002, 2:20 am
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion? *Pic*
Pete Rudie -- 1/24/2002, 12:37 pm
Ok, Pete. Could you explain CPES? *NM*
Bill Price -- 1/24/2002, 3:54 pm
Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer
Pete Rudie -- 1/24/2002, 7:27 pm
Re: CPES
KenC -- 1/25/2002, 12:48 am
Re: CPES
Pete Rudie -- 1/25/2002, 2:03 am
Pete is Right On The Money about CPES *Pic*
Joe Greenley -- 1/25/2002, 3:15 am
Re: You shouldn't have posted that picture
Shawn Baker -- 1/25/2002, 10:14 am
Re: Pete is Right On The Money about CPES
Pete Rudie -- 1/25/2002, 4:24 am
Re: Pete - CPES as a seal coat - Will Try It
Joe Greenley -- 1/25/2002, 11:56 am
Re: Pete is Right On The Money about CPES
Shawn Baker -- 1/25/2002, 10:20 am
Re: Borates and Wood deterioration....
John B. -- 1/25/2002, 7:35 pm
Re: Borates and Wood deterioration....
John B. -- 1/25/2002, 7:34 pm
Re: Pete is Right On The Money about CPES
Pete Rudie -- 1/25/2002, 10:55 am
Re: Paddle: Hey Pete Rudie--CPES final opinion?
Shawn Baker -- 1/24/2002, 2:12 pm