Nolan, you did an excellent job in letting us understand where you are coming from and I, for one, would LOVE to learn more about the different layups for various conditions. I also agree with you that many of the instructions do not go into layups quite as much as they should, but it could get kind of dull after a while. How did you get the information from the Grudgeon Brothers? Write, e-mail, call?

What did you learn? Maybe you could write up a website or something and attach a link to it so all of us here could learn. I am always willing to learn something about how to make my future boats stronger and maybe a little lighter at the same time. Probably everyone else here would like to at least have the chance to review the findings.

: 1

: Imagine if I mentioned I was building a strap on baby seat that would mount
: on the deck of my kayak so I could carry my baby with me. Imagine if I
: also mentioned I really liked drinking when I kayaked and thought drunken
: rolling with a baby was fun. Folks would be all over me like feathers on a
: duck. Rightfully so. What I just said was dangerous. Not simply dangerous
: to me, but to my baby. Criminally dangerous to many of you.

: Now imagine if you knew that kayak designs were inadequate, and that people
: were going to die as a result. Wouldn't you be crowing this as loudly as
: you could? Just like the baby that's going to die in the above paragraph?

: I'm not saying I agree with George on his conclusions about the designs and
: building plans of kayaks being deathtraps. In fact I don't. But, I do
: respect his vocalization of what he believes, that the vast majority of
: designs and plans are dangerous, if not downright deadly. Wouldn't be the
: first time a single voice was right, and the masses were wrong. I believe
: he is wrong, but I'm not so arrogant as to insist it's impossible that I'm
: the one who's wrong.

: 2

: There is one point that George harps on that I totally agree with. In fact,
: it seems most people on this bbs agree with him on it. That is, the total
: lack of glass layup information from the people selling plans. The #1
: topic of conversation on this board has to do with figuring out if an
: *alternative* method of glassing from the one, single, method described by
: the plan/kit seller as adequate for all uses of the kayak.

: Think about it. We all are constantly deviating from the plans on this point.
: That's because the plans _are_ inadequate. I have never seen a set of
: plans or a book that goes into glass layups for different uses and abuses
: of a kayak, and I've seen a lot of them. They give one lay up method,
: claiming it's adequate for everything. Clearly the builders on this bbs
: don't agree with that.

: We've all been there, staring at the plans and trying to figure out if our
: beaching conditions are rougher then the plan seller was thinking of when
: he said a single layer was adequate. We've all looked at kayak plans and
: wondered if the boat was strong enough for our uses. Especially the people
: that do paddle in the seas, wondering if a deck really can survive ocean
: waves crashing down on it.

: Then we build the boat, and wonder if be built it well enough. Nothing was
: ever mentioned in the book or plans for determining if you actually laid
: the epoxy and cloth well. Just a description of "do it this way, and
: it's fine." That's not adequate for person who's building their first
: boat and never worked with epoxy fiberglass and wood. Hence that
: nervousness on the maiden voyage, the gasp the first time the boat hits a
: rock, and the frantic inspections that follow.

: It's pretty sad in my opinion that the place I had to go to find information
: on layup strengths and evaluating how well I built a kayak wasn't a kayak
: kit or plan seller, but an epoxy manufacturer. Gudgeon Brothers provided
: me with some charts showing the different strengths of various layups, and
: a method for determining if I had laid the fiberglass and epoxy correctly.
: This isn't in any kayak building book I've ever seen, or set of
: instructions that come with a kit or prints. Heck, CLC was downright
: hostile to the notion of deviation and inspection.

: Honestly, I think George is right in that the kit makers and plan sellers do
: us a disservice by not telling us how to test our layup methods and
: skills, and not giving us some information on what we need in building the
: hull for our uses. A Guillemot destined to cross the ocean has very
: different layup needs then a Guillemot destined to paddle around a quiet
: pond. Take a heavily built kayak to the pond and you just have a heavy
: boat. Take an underbuilt kayak out into the ocean, and you may well die
: from it.